As the game of baseball changes, so must the historical records. As in the beginning of the game, there has been an evolution in how America’s pastime has been played.
Today, analytics has shown that it is significantly harder to throw a complete game or no-hitter for many reasons. Players have become bigger and throw harder. There are more and different pitches. Baseballs have changed. Players train their entire lives starting as children and come into the game with much more mileage on their arms than previous generations.
But one of the most important stats is when a pitcher faces a lineup for the third time, the chances of a batter getting a hit goes up significantly. Every team now is much more likely to remove their pitcher before then.
This has cut down significantly on complete games and also singular pitcher no-hitters.
There is evidence that allowing a pitcher to throw an entire game significantly increases his chances of serious arm injury. We’ve seen it happen to a number of Tiger pitchers, including Spencer Turnbull who had Tommy John surgery shortly after throwing his no-hitter. It is appearing more and more likely that Turnbull will be missing close to 2 years.
Recently, the Tigers threw a combined no-hitter, which was only MLB’s 20th.
If you were the manager and your #1 or #2 pitcher was throwing a no-hitter, would you remove him in the 7th inning as he faced the lineup for the 3rd time and his pitch count was elevated?
Today’s blog addresses this dilemma and allows readers to share their thoughts in more detail. And hopefully, to actively engage with others by responding to their posts and creating back-and-forth discussion threads. The more the merrier!
For this one blog only, you’ve got 6 sentences max to share your thoughts. Of course, you can also respond to other readers.
TT will supply the ammunition. One thought-provoking question. Several options provided. One hard choice to be selected. One vote.
Ready?
Don’t forget to come back and check the final results!
Comments are limited to a maximum of 6 sentences. Please make sure to check out the other rules for posting under the link at the top of the page in order for your comments to be published.
FINAL RESULTS FROM A JULY TOTALLY TIGERS POLL:
What are your feelings about the last half of the Tigers’ season?
- Looking forward to seeing what may happen. 73%
- Somewhat curious. 18%
- Feeling pessimistic. 9%
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If he were just starting to face the lineup for the 3rd time, it would be better than a no-hitter — it would be a perfect game, and the pitch count would be lower due to lack of walks or errors (unless an inordinate number of foul balls had been hit). In that case, I’d leave him in at least until someone reached base. If “only” a no-hitter, I’d see how he seemed to be doing and check the pitch count. As Hinch said in the case of Manning, he was obviously laboring in the 7th. and needed to be removed.
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Do we have a 1 run lead or maybe 5, I have a longer leash with a bigger lead. How elevated is the count, 75 or 90? Is the pitcher a young player with little MLB track record or a 10 yr vet who has gone over 100 pitches many times? Has the opposition been making loud outs or just weak contact?
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Agree with all the misc parameters in making the decision. Could you picture JV being taken out in the 7th inning of a no hitter in progress? Doubtful they could have dragged him off the mound by force.
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Max during his Tiger career would have made the decision for you. 🙂
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Heart says leave him in. Head says pull him. But given the “elevated pitch count” scenario I’d go with my head and pull him. Unless he threw like Greg Maddux. For guys like Greg the pitch count was nearly irrelevant. Wish more young pitchers would emulate him.
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Of course I don’t want to see a player injured, but baseball is also entertainment. I saw Nolan Ryan pitch his first no-hitter in KC and it was a serendipitous thrill. Pulling a hot pitcher, or hanging one out to dry might be coldly logical but if you actually spend $200 to got to the game with your kids, you would feel cheated.
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Winning comes first, but I feel the technical experts in baseball need an in-service from that great promoter/owner, Bill Veeck. Pulling a guy who is shoving a no-hitter may be the best percentage thing, but baseball and the Tigers need to take some calculated risks to have fun.
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Totally agree about the insane level of training major league pitchers have by the time they’re major leaguers. Mickey Lolich used to go out the first day of spring training and throw as hard as he could. I remember he said he wanted to get his arm good and sore to get the initial pain out of the way. I doubt pitchers like Lolich, Frank Lary, Don Mossi and Jim Bunning could even cut it in today’s baseball.
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I get playing the percentages on stuff like pulling a guy who is pitching a no-hitter. So perhaps they will build an analysts wing in the Hall of Fame, and we will wonder if Jay Sartori will wear a Tigers’ hat when he is inducted. I am only half kidding. So many aspects of competition have changed, from tanking to scheduled rests all based on cold calculation. I try not to be “old” about these things. I consider myself a dedicated fan, but confess some of the romance of the game is gone for me.
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An analysts wing of the HOF! Just a matter of time I suppose. Now I need to clean up the coffee i just laughed out.
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Yup, the game has certainly changed. They had to stop the Tigers game today for a moment to fix an “electronics” problem between catcher and the pitcher. Who would’ve thought we would ever see that a couple of years ago.
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I would let the first pitcher continue to pitch until he gives up the first hit, or pitches a no-hitter period, unless he injures himself!
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For me as a fan, I want to see the no hitter. Can’t tell you how excited I was when Morris threw his. no hitter in 84. Always looked forward to any game Verlander pitched because there was always the extra bonus of him throwing one. And who would have wanted to miss the gem Galarraga threw and all the conversation that game brought?
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Nothing is ever completely black or white. If the game is in hand, I’d take him out. If it is still better to leave him in than go to a bad BP, I leave him in. If it becomes an automatic decision the rosters will have to be expanded and contracts re-written. JMO
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I’d do exactly as AJ did pitcher’s feelings (and fan’s) be damned. Most pitchers worth their spot on the roster wouldn’t want to come out for any reason. It’s the pitching coach and manager’s job to ascertain the health of the pitcher in order to prevent injury along with winning the game over a pitcher’s (and fans) desires.
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No hitters are very rare things and the chance for throwing one is very small % wise (unless of course your name was Nolan Ryan or Sandy Kofax). So absolutely leaving the pitcher in. I still remember Amando Gallagera having his perfect game stolen from him by Jim Joyce. Ugh.
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All my fellow pollsters have made the choices presented far from black and white. I chose to pull him but would offer the stress conditions as a real impetus to pull or not to pull. How many of the pitchers allotted pitches are stressful, with runners on, or against teams from the AL East who all seem to be foul ball machines. Also some organizations, aka the Cleveland Guardians, prepare their pitchers to throw higher pitch counts, often 100 plus. And if our pitcher is only hitting the third time through in the seventh, his potential perfect game is most likely a low pitch count and I would have to rescind my vote and let him go.
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Does it lessen the no-hitter when it is a combined one? We used to credit the single pitcher no-hitter with a great game, but when it is a combined no-hitter, does it speak more about the team that day than it does the pitchers? Think about it.
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JMO but a no-hitter is 50% skill and 50% luck at best. Pitchers with very pedestrian stuff have them, pitchers with great stuff don’t. The “label”, especially in today’s game should never take precedence over the pitcher’s or the team’s health.
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